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Post by Ella on Nov 4, 2004 19:45:50 GMT -6
I'm not sure what made me think of this. Maybe I just have too much spare time at work... I've read waaaay too much LOTR fan fiction. And one thing I've noticed, on the boards and groups for that fandom, is the overwhelming discussion/hatred for Mary Sue characters/stories... I'm not even sure if hanfic writers know that term, but this site has a pretty good definition: www.ottawa.net/aldowdall/ld/marysue.htmlBut anyway... I never hear hanfic writers complain Mary Sues. Why is this? I'm just curious. There are plenty of them out there... some of my favorites stories probably have Mary Sues in them... hell, sometimes I think *my* story is starring a Mary Sue. Anyone have any theories? I just find it very odd. I see people complaining about the same old plotline in hanfics, but I don't think I've ever really seen a specific complaint about the perfectness of a character...
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Post by krystal on Nov 4, 2004 20:42:44 GMT -6
I think Mary Sues are probably very common in FanFiction, particularly since they are based quite often on the author's dream version of themselves. And who wouldn't like to have Taylor Hanson fall in love with them? Or one of his equally fine brothers?
I also find America to be very black and white in storytelling. Here, characters in movies are usually so incredibly good, or so incredibly bad. I like to see foreign movies sometimes, just because the characters aren't so predictable. And quite a few Hanfic writers are young and get a lot of their ideas from movies and such. Not enough real life experience yet...
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Post by Stephanie on Nov 4, 2004 20:43:49 GMT -6
To be perfectly fair, I hate the idea of a TRUE MarySue... Naming the main character after yourself is just strange. I think the reason why hanfic writers don't find it so objectionable is because a lot of times, they want it to be true. They yearn to live out the fantasies that they are writing about. They want it to be true that they move to Tulsa, live next door to Hanson and one of the brothers fall madly in love with them. This wholly overworked and completely cliched plotline is the stuff that Hanson fans are made of.
With that said, I will admit that there is more than just a little bit of me in Cleo. She even looks a little like me with too long dark, curly hair. But in the end, it isn't me either. Cleo is much smarter and way more messed up than I am... Or at least I think she's more messed up than me. Cleo needs rescuing and Taylor is her knight in shining armor.
I think it breaks down to this: LOTR is a totally otherworld. It is a fully realized, but completely fictional place. Hanfic (although completely unfeasible) has more of a base in reality. Hanson are real, they really do live in Tulsa, OK, they are touchable... And their reality makes the stuff of fanfic dreams seem possible.
Dang, does that make sense?
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Post by krystal on Nov 4, 2004 20:56:51 GMT -6
I think we all throw little parts of ourselves in our characters. It's how we make sense of what's happening. I think that god-awful teeniness in Camille comes from the deep dark recesses of my mind. Or maybe, I'm making fun of the stereotypical Hanson fan. One of the ways I avoid Mary Sue is to base some of my characters on people I know in real life. I give them their personality (a bit exaggerated, I'm sure) and even some of their physical characteristics. And I give them their flaws.
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Post by Barbara on Nov 4, 2004 21:06:34 GMT -6
First of all, I hardly get past the first page of any story if it looks like just another author's fantasy about falling in love with a Hanson.
I'm not sure the stories I've read have Mary Sue's. Maybe a little bit, but I'm more drawn to stories where all the characters have flaws. And I love eccentric characters. I just suck at writing them.
However, I think every good story should have a hero and/or heroine. I like to see ordinary people doing extraordinary things. Maybe that's because I'm into mystery and sci-fi. I mean, I have reality every day. When I read, I want to be entertained. I want someone to weave an interesting tale for me. Reality be damned!
I like romance stories, as well, as long as they're well-written. It's not my favorite kind of story, but there are lots of great Hanson fiction romances that were realistic and wonderfully written. Hanson fans love those. I have read some with Mary Sues, and I probably didn't get past the first chapter. I have noticed that my younger readers seem to like the 'love' parts of my stories the best.
Anyway, character development has always been a challenge for me, so I'm sure I've broken a few rules.
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Post by Ella on Nov 4, 2004 21:10:23 GMT -6
I also find America to be very black and white in storytelling. Here, characters in movies are usually so incredibly good, or so incredibly bad. I like to see foreign movies sometimes, just because the characters aren't so predictable. And quite a few Hanfic writers are young and get a lot of their ideas from movies and such. Not enough real life experience yet...
Oh, definitely. The film class I took in college gave me a whole new appreciation for foreign cinema... Nights of Cabiria and Seven Beauties are two of my favorite films... ESPECIALLY SB. I actually bought it on DVD. It's just so.... amazing. Unbelievable. Lina Wertmuller is a genius...
They yearn to live out the fantasies that they are writing about. They want it to be true that they move to Tulsa, live next door to Hanson and one of the brothers fall madly in love with them. This wholly overworked and completely cliched plotline is the stuff that Hanson fans are made of.
Agreed... and you get that in any fandom. 75% of LOTR fics are 'modern-age girl mysteriously lands in middle-earth and sleeps with legolas'. LOL. And hey, I *have* read a few of those that were actually good... but for the most part, not.
To be perfectly fair, I hate the idea of a TRUE MarySue... Naming the main character after yourself is just strange.
That is my biggest regret about this story. That, and killing off both of her parents (now I wish I hadn't because of all the comic possibilities of Taylor having to meet her father). *My* name is Allison. When I started writing it, it wasn't a story -- it was just a retelling of a bizarre dream I'd had. It sort of morphed into a story because I kept adding fictional elements to it -- and I just never went back and changed the name. I hate that. I know people think it's weird. But she's not me. In fact, she's based on someone I knew in high school. If I ever rewrote the entire thing I'd change it.
I think it breaks down to this: LOTR is a totally otherworld. It is a fully realized, but completely fictional place. Hanfic (although completely unfeasible) has more of a base in reality. Hanson are real, they really do live in Tulsa, OK, they are touchable... And their reality makes the stuff of fanfic dreams seem possible.
I guess that's true, but to me, Hanson still seem otherworldly. LOL. But it amazes me when people comment and say things like, "I have to remind myself it's not real" and stuff like that. Hell, I'm not even really picturing Taylor when I'm thinking of what to write anymore. It's a guy who sort of looks like him, but with different mannerisms, expressions, personality, etc...
Personally, I think Taylor owes me. I've had a ton of people say that they have actually starting liking him more after reading 'Catapult'. hehe. If I ever met him I might tell him that. LOL.
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Post by krystal on Nov 4, 2004 21:10:59 GMT -6
You write GREAT characters, Barbara!
And yeah, young'uns like romance! And they write it, even if they don't know anything about it.
When I come across a story, if it doesn't grab me on the first chapter, I skip to seven. If they haven't gotten to anything unique or interesting by then, I give it the thumbs down.
But, even a Mary Jane/ girl moves next door to Hanson is a good read, if it's really well written. So, there you have it!
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Post by Casey on Nov 4, 2004 22:19:18 GMT -6
Interesting concern. Another thing to consider is the notion of someone's portrayal of Isaac/Taylor/or Zac as a Mary Sue. They, too, need to be flawed. Isaac is not as romantic and caring as we like to think, Taylor isn't as deeply emotional and brooding, and Zac isn't as spastic and insane as writers often like to imagine. An interesting Zac interpretation is always appreciated. To me, he's the most fun to figure out. What do you guys think about the Hanson boy archetype? -Casey
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Post by Ella on Nov 4, 2004 22:31:00 GMT -6
Another thing to consider is the notion of someone's portrayal of Isaac/Taylor/or Zac as a Mary Sue. They, too, need to be flawed.
Isaac is not as romantic and caring as we like to think, Taylor isn't as deeply emotional and brooding, and Zac isn't as spastic and insane as writers often like to imagine.
An interesting Zac interpretation is always appreciated. To me, he's the most fun to figure out.
What do you guys think about the Hanson boy archetype?
Very true! The three of them do usually fall into those roles. But I think people write them that way because they think they *should* be written that way... does that make sense? Like, for the longest time, Zac was the crazy, insane one, and it's like people don't think he should be written any other way. Not to mention that when you do actually try to write them differently, people tend to freak out. I've had several people complain about my portrayal of Zac in my story.
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Post by krystal on Nov 4, 2004 22:43:52 GMT -6
One of the things that's always fascinated me about Hanfic is that we all see the same three guys, yet there are so many takes on them. Some see Taylor as angelic, while others turn him into a devil--both of which SEEM to be based on the authors real thoughts on the real personality of Taylor.
Zac--god bless America, even when he WAS a crazy little kid, I got tired real fast of the silly, overly excited, stupidity that so many people pinned on him. He still showed a lot of intelligence for his age, and I think so many people just ignored that about him.
Isaac--well, haven't a lot of people been surprised to see that he is the one who has turned out to be the Diva of the group?
Then we have authors who don't base the characters in any way on the boys--just their names so that they can post their story to a ready made audience. Which is fine. But, I really prefer a story where I think the author is writing them the way he or she thinks they really are--that's what interests me.
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Post by Casey on Nov 4, 2004 22:45:06 GMT -6
I think Zac's character is a lot of fun to toy with. He's definitely the most reserved of the three. In a way, it's 'safe' to write them the way we think they should be. I've never met them in person, but I know that meeting them ruins these ideals for a lot of people. So we keep them boxed up in their little paradigms. Here's how I like to imagine Zac: I think he's introspective, very private, hesitant, skeptical, bordering on neurotic, he overthinks, he lets very few people in and when he does, he becomes attached, I think he's loyal, and he remembers everybody's birthday. And I think that if Isaac was up in the middle of the night, stressing out, he'd call Zac, not Taylor. Oh, and I bet Zac always has gum. So I'm probably TOTALLY off as far as how he really is. But I don't want to know how he really is. I like making it up.
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Post by krystal on Nov 4, 2004 22:45:45 GMT -6
Ella, I'll bet most people reading the story have no idea your name is Allison, I didn't! Now you've gone and outed yourself!
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Post by krystal on Nov 4, 2004 22:48:45 GMT -6
Casey, I see nothing to make me think your Zac isn't right on the mark. But, we'll never know.
And I think if either Taylor or Isaac needed to talk, they'd both go to Zac.
I know it's against Hanson Myth as we know it, but what I see here lately is that Taylor and Isaac aren't all that close. Of course, I could be totally off the mark. Again, we'll never know.
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Post by Casey on Nov 4, 2004 22:53:55 GMT -6
TEXTVerrrry TEXTinteresting. I got the feeling that Taylor and Zac aren't very close. But that all stems from various gossip and "someone who knows someone told me.." type stories. But basically, I think Isaac and Zac are total dudes and best buds.
Perhaps the "calling Zac when you need him" idea comes from the "Papa Zac" nickname they give him. I'm sure he always keeps his cool.
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Post by Ella on Nov 4, 2004 23:06:32 GMT -6
Krystal -- Some people know. Anyone who's ever asked me about it, I've told. Or people who talk to me quite a bit know. *shrug* But it's not something I've openly discussed, because I've been afraid that it would turn people off (for example, read Stephanie's post, LOL). And I do wish I could change it now, but oh well. Although I mostly call her 'Alley', because she's more of an Alley than an Allison.
On a side note, this also partially explains why <i>none</i> of my real-life friends know about this story -- I'm leading a double life. LOL. I would be teased mercilessly until the end of time...
<i>Then we have authors who don't base the characters in any way on the boys--just their names so that they can post their story to a ready made audience. </i>
I will shamelessly admit that that's basically what I've done. I'd like to think the real Taylor is really as smart and sweet as mine, but I doubt it... or that the real Isaac is as patient as mine... and so on. But really, I know that the only similarities are probably their name and a few real-life details. My story barely feels like a Hanfic at times -- I forget that I'm writing about Hanson.
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